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108290-wildstar-population-ncsoft-2nd-quarter-2014-earnings-report-page-4
Page 1, Page 2, Page 3, Page 4 Content ---- ---- Me too. It reminds me a little of Space Ace. KIMMMMMIEEEE! | |} ---- Can we please drop the refereneces to other games? For crying out loud, this isnt WoW, Rift< Gw or GW 2...its WILDSTAR. Is this just some attempt at making us "feel better"? I just never understood the reasoning "Because X did it, its ok for Y to do it". Damn, I used to use that as an exuse ALL THE TIME as a kid: "but Mom!, all my friends are doing it". and she'd always reply: "if your friends jumped off the top of a mountain, would you follow?" If a game cant stand on its own merits without being compared to another game, I'm pretty sure I'm not interested. | |} ---- I like the art too. Amusingly, the art is one of the first thing people bash in other games, like SWTOR. I think more accurately most people have gotten used to playing MMOs for several hours at a time, and the intensity of Wildstar's action combat is exhausting. When you look at a tab-target hotbar combat style and the efficiency with which you can play it for hours on end, and compare it to here where you have to pay attention and actually try in all combat, whether it's basic trash mobs or important bosses, it's easy to see the spike in the requirements on a player. I think people players have been forced to confront how babied they've been in combat for the past decade or so. Everyone learned tab-target combat, the players wrote macros and bought mice w/extra buttons to streamline the player input and make it so efficient you could play while doing other things and splitting one's attention. Wildstar makes you actually work for that dopamine shot to your reward centers of the brain, and people realized they'd rather do something easier for more frequent(if weaker)tickles. | |} ---- That isn't at all why people mention other games. The point of reminding folks who either are new to the genre or never experienced a launch that every MMO ever made has had a rough launch, is because that is natural for the genre. It isn't a childish 'because X did it, it's ok for Y too do it' claim; it's a factual and contextual statement that 'this is the real f#$%ing world, and no MMO in history has ever launched with out bugs, problems, and issues that then had to be resolved; and no MMO ever will be'. | |} ---- In before some whackjob comes along with "But it's 2014! Bugs are not acceptable!" Or some other equally-ignorant nonsense. | |} ---- I disagree. And its only "natural" because consumers allow it to be. The whole argument is a cop out. Again, I dont flipping care HOW horrible WoW was at release. I paid $60 for WILDSTAR, and i pay a $15/month to PLAY Wildstar. Do you see Carbine mentioning anywhere that Wildstar is like WoW? Why? Because its NOT WoW and they "planned" on becoming better than the other MMO's. And then people wonder why people are leaving the genre. And with THAT kind of attitude, we would most likely always be stuck in the 20th century. I'm sorry your standards are lower than mine. | |} ---- See? That didn't take long at all, did it? :lol: | |} ---- Reality has limits. I'm sorry you disagree, but in fairness, please present a single game on any system by any developer that was 100% bug / issue free. Wildstar is IMO better than WoW. The gameplay is active, the mechanics, the Art, the music, all are much more intense than WoWs by far. Of course, W* like all coded constructs has bugs; and no one likes bugs. But all games have them. sure there are some systems in W* that i disagree with / think are negatively impacting the game; but taken on the whole content wise (not bug wise), W* is a steak from a decent place like O'Charley's and WoW is a big mac. Sure billions of people eat big macs each year... but that doesn't make them better than a decent steak from a place that serves maybe a few hundred thousand folks a year. | |} ---- Like the "whackjobs" that go to the opposite extreme in attempt to be "right"? Shame on you. | |} ---- NO idea what you are on about man. How about you just say what you mean instead of the snarky, cryptic response? | |} ---- I don't condone them, either, just to be clear. But seriously, amigo ... Do you know what goes into creating something as vast as an MMO? I barely do and and even what I know is HUGE. To say that "consumers allow" bugs to happen is just incredibly wrong on every level. No one WANTS bugs. No one. The adults in the crowd, those with a knowledge base greater than say, 10th grade, understand that huge projects always have glitches of some kind. It's the nature of reality. Nothing is ever perfect. If you think you can make a perfect project the size of an MMO, please get into the industry NOW. I am certain some developer will hire the one coder on the planet who never makes mistakes and is capable of limitless bug-free code on a moments notice. Seriously, you're worth BILLIONS! | |} ---- Nah it wasn't the combat.... It was everything else such as the dreadful grind, dailies and slow exp pve scaling. This is why I mainly do pvp more than pve. | |} ---- As software becomes more complicated (and over the years, it certainly has) and uses of that software grow more into the realm of open world and free choice designs, bugs simply become more likely, not less. Even games like the Assassin's Creed sequels, which recycles some 90% of its code from game to game and just adds new environments, characters, and a few new mechanics, have bugs that are fixed in updates. The scale of an MMORPG in 2014 just to exist is staggering, and Wildstar is a MASSIVE MMORPG as far as code goes, built on a completely custom-designed engine with constantly designed and tested updates on a conveyor belt into the game. It's even more likely software conflicts will appear now, in 2014 with all this need for immediate content and updates on the scale we're talking about, than it was in '04, or even earlier. And it wasn't like bugs weren't all over the place in online games before... | |} ---- Frankly, I DONT CARE what it takes, its IRRELEVANT information to me. I just want to play the game. NO ONE twisted this company intomaking a game. Its not like they are doing it for free. And its YOUR attitude I was refering to when I mentioned the "consumer" bit. I stand by my opinion. Pointing out the weakness of another product to justify your own shortcoming is NOT an option for me. Its a cop out, plain and simple. You can roll a turd in powdered sugar all you want. Thats STILL doesnt make it a jelly donut. EDIT: And I was NOT trying to imply that consumers "willingly" allow bugs. I know for a fact I'm from a different generation than you. Back when I did business with a company, a quality product brought you into the store. Respect for said customer, along with awesome customer service is what kept them coming back. Thats no longer the case. Consumers nowadays gripe and moan about it, but in the end still shell their money out. Companies KNOW this and have less incentive to provide that quality product.....and that indeed is YOUR ( the consumers) fault. Quit your gaming addiction for a few months and dont give them money. You can damn well bet someone will take notice and change things asap, or go bankrupt. If YOU want to settle for less, hey, its your money. Myself, I expect and demand better and have no issue talking with my wallet. See, I dont NEED wildstar, Wildstar NEEDS me. | |} ---- And no one is twisting you into playing it. If you enjoy the game, great keep playing and have fun. If you don't, then take a break or go do something you do enjoy. | |} ---- ---- While I agree the runing system in its current state is tedious and too RNGish (d@mn you Water Rune), the rune system has not kept anyone who really wants to raid from raiding endgame or PvPing efficiently. I also do not feel the attunement process was that difficult to complete. I feel as though people are too used to the simplicity of other MMO's and are unwilling to actually put any effort into learning how to play this game correctly (even with some of the major bugs) thus causing frustration and the eventual un-sub from Wildstar. People in 2014 are so caught up with the 'instant gratification mentality'. Pretty sad right? If anything, practicing the dungeons will make you a better player by teaching you skill sets that you can apply in any MMO, past, present or future. Learning curve, situation awareness and the team effort required to succeed are all attributes that are applicable in other MMO's. Bottom line, This game is not for everyone. | |} ---- Bugs happen, sure. The problem is that obvious regressions are getting out into the wild. (Look for the "You broke X again" posts) | |} ---- And not a single game should ever be made for everyone. Mostly because it's impossible. | |} ---- It wasn't a catch-all for everyone that left, but I think it covers the most. I agree on the levelling grind being draining on the psyche too, mentoring isn't where it needs to be & there's a lack of alternate levelling paths in the open world that WoW had I strongly miss. Some people were born to casual though, I laughed out loud when I was watching the Gamescom Q&A for Star Wars, and they basically said they've given up on making their game an MMO, and are now just content with making it a Star Wars environment for people to sit around in. No new raids this year, any group content has been role-neutral & the trinity is dead, and PVPers are allowed to queue against one another and fix each other's ratings because no one would queue otherwise. As bad as things might seem in Wildstar, looking at some "competitors" can definitely make you appreciate where we're at. | |} ---- In a game where the engine and all content was coded from scratch; that's a pretty weak meme. They didn't 'break X again' they completely made a system from scratch that may have borrowed CONCEPTs from other places, bit is iteself a unique coded construct. The same concept in W* is not coded the same as an identical concept in game X | |} ---- This ^^ YES, bugs happen, but come on people. When you "patch" a game because of bugs, and end up breaking it even more, on mutiple occasions even, then yes, a person has a right to complain Oh wait, scratch that. I forgot, WoW had the same issues. | |} ---- *SIGH*. Not this again. Of course it's not for everyone. MMOs in general are not for everyone. Not for very many people at all, as a percentage of the world population. The issue is: Is Wildstar a game for enough someones that it can continue to exist? Because it's great to put out art of any kind that's "not for everyone" or even "not for anyone except you" -- as long as you don't need to make a profit off it. Wildstar is not a personal art project for the Devs. It's a for-profit venture that needs people to pay for it if it's going to continue to exist. "Not for everyone" is fine. "Not for anyone", or in this case, "Not for more than a few thousand people max", is not at all fine. That is the real "Bottom Line", and you know it. (Or maybe I'm just talking to another Blizzard mole who's being paid to come to these forums and tell people "JUST STOP PLAYING ALREADY NOT 4 U GO HOMMMMEEE TO WOW!", or words to that effect....) | |} ---- You essentially just argued against teaching history. We are supposed to learn from those who came before us. 100% of the reason Wildstar is in a bad spot is because they repeated almost every mistake previous MMOs have made and learned nothing from the successes of MOBA in the current gaming meta. History is meant to prevent mistakes and guide future choices. Lessons they should have learned from gaming history: -inaction against exploiter and cheaters, especially those that effect massive amounts of players, is a quick way to lose subscribers. (wintrading, eloboosting, ect.) -grind(especially rep grind) and extreme time-gating hasn't been successful (except in korean mmos) in years. -RNG is the most complained about topic in MMO's, why would you design your itemization completely around it? -Really long attunements and extremely rare and expensive critical character progression (ability/amp upgrades) create huge barrier of entry and reduce alting. Alting is a huge method for keeping people in your game. You never want to make alting less viable. -Huge gear gaps in pvp + terrible matchmaking.... Again huge barrier of entry, minimizes importance of player skill, reduces alting, getting repeatedly pubstomped makes players quit, creates player desperation which feeds exploit to win or pay to win environments. -Leaderboards keep top players motivated, creates rating value beyond gear, encourages twitch streaming (free advertisement and game legitimacy). Compared to most of the other systems in MMOs, leaderboards are easy to code and implement. -there are more, but time is money | |} ---- Yeah, the game may have its issues but frankly I dont believe there are any "moles" trying to cause anarchy etc. Even if it were true to a degree, I'd like to give the benefit of doubt to the community that in the end, they wouldnt fall for it. Some people can be annoying but I think for the most part, they are smarter than they act at times. | |} ---- I'm not serious about them being in the pay of Blizzard :P :ph34r: Though I do think the "WIldstar is not for you, just LEAVE!" people are in fact, not supporters of the game at all, but instead volunteer trolls who have picked up on this line as one certain to infuriate other players and make them less likely to want to be a part of this game's community. Because "We never wanted you here to start with!" attitudes are...uh....how to put this....counter-productive in terms of keeping an MMO alive. They no doubt tuned in to the negative reaction on the part of much of the MMO community to a couple of things a few of the Devs said pre-launch about the audience they hoped to attract to Wildstar. | |} ---- I didnt argue AGAINST "teaching" history. I argued FOR learning from it. That "should be" a given and as you pointed out, it apparently is NOT. I guess I should have taken the other track. Since WoW and the other games had such difficulties at launch, why bother with WILDSTAR if its going to be the same thing, just a different title? | |} ---- I don't know, maybe they (at least subconsciously) want the game's death because it would be the ultimate validation for them. "I'm literally so elite and hardcore that the game I wanted wasn't financially viable because too big a percentage of mankind are loser scrubs. B) " | |} ---- I LOVE those "Then just quit" replies. Some people cant see past their own nose. They dont even think about the results if everyone took their advice...no, they'd head to the forums whining about no one around in the game anymore. LOL! | |} ---- I don't think the bug-level was unreasonable either, or the class imbalances. The problem is that you have major bugs like the one you described in a competitive PvE environment. Stuff like that and the epic-to-white gear bugs and you have very unhappy raiders seeing their progression come to a screeching halt. Not to mention throwing everyone into the competitive PvP pool before they even began considering gear and class balance changes. Bugs are to be expected, but the show-stoppers gotta get fixed ASAP. | |} ---- Nailed it. | |} ---- There is only one 'game breaking' bug I'm aware of, and its the raid guild GM's losing their genesis key bug. I've never heard of or encountered another literal game breaking bug in W* before. For reference in SWTOR, there were bugs that literally prevented progression for the first few months (e.g. mandatory class quests that were impossible to complete). Am I missing some massive bugs I haven't heard of? | |} ---- Oh Lord, I can just see this at PAX two years hence if NCSoft eventually shutters Wildstar. And all over the gaming boards Internet-wide. People! We have to keep Wildstar alive to avoid this disaster! :o We need to be able to say, when these people won't shut up that WoW/SWTOR/FFXIV are all "too faceroll, "GTFO and go play Wildstar and leave the rest of us alone!" I'm running off right now to buy some CREDD from NCSoft. Carbine is doing the MMO gaming community a huge favor here, and we've all been too blind to see it. ...Okay, okay, just kidding. We already have EVE Online for this purpose, after all :lol: | |} ---- Sigh. Again, how is this relevant to Wildstar? | |} ---- If you don't think having the guild GM lose their genesis key and being told 'oops sorry re-roll' isn't a significantly massive bug, I'm not sure what I can tell you. And that's still not even getting into the reports of epic gear magically transforming into whites that I've seen pop up on Reddit. 'B-B-But SWTOR' isn't a valid defense. This is a bug that's affecting Wildstar right now and impacting raiding guilds right now. | |} ---- Well to be honest and fair... Carbine were quoted in several articles and videos saying they were "doing WoW right this time". :D (Making a comparison to how it could be like WoW... kind of like how when people are competing at something, and someone says, "watch how it's done" while doing the same exact move/action.) | |} ---- Especially because, as I've said elsewhere, TOR really isn't the bar we should set for Wildstar, considering its history. | |} ---- Even though the (flawed) logic of those dishing out the "leave" line is hilarious at best... up until that line, the rest of the logic could also be white-knight logic FOR the game... I mean, sometimes the defense of the game seems almost more like insurance/timeshare/used-car salesperson gimmick-lines or sales pitches. Taking the cons and making them sound like pros, so in the end, there's actually no cons whatsoever and the game is flawlessly perfect (like that's even possible for any title). ^_^ I know right? Hey, kind of exactly what happened come to think of it. :D But yeah, they're not realizing that their horrible logic they're giving everybody is dwindling the overall bottom-line of revenue, which then lends back to LESS newer content, updates, staff-salaries (to allow them more time on to fix bugs/issues), and keeping NCSoft at bay from pulling the plug. :D Couldn't agree more. Still blows my mind that an actual response from CS/devs is, "oh well, start over and pray it doesn't happen again" (seriously!? Play the entire game, invest everything throughout the game... gold/platinum, skill points, amp points, gear, progression, etc... just to hear, "now just go do it again"... what is this, BOOT CAMP/BASIC TRAINING!?) -- even seen some saying that CS offers to give them experience boosts that will tie into guild-rep boosts, etc. I mean seriously... what message is that giving to the gamers? "We build the game, we write the code, we supposedly fix the issues, we have full control over the game... but uhhh, we can't seem to revert your genesis key, or be able to flip the little variable flag that says it's "OK", our bad"... yet, they can fully turn off one major step of attunement because of a glitch on their end. I kind of have to feel bad for any actual stock-investors in the company that might actually play the game... might not be sending them the best overall message to stay invested. :huh: As for the transforming-to-white gear... that one is so odd. I've had it happen both ways... transform to white and just stay white altogether... sold off a couple this happened to, to vendor, just to junk it. Then there's one piece I keep in my bag... pair of pistols I bought that had lifesteal and some other cool mods on them (posted about it in another thread a bit back on the topic of item stat-resets)... that one's hilarious, think it's one of the "bug-fixes" constantly at work... sometimes I log in, I check, it's white, other times I log in, check, it's back to blue, then back to white, then back to blue... thing can't make up its mind. | |} ---- What the hell are you talking about? I LITERALLY pointed to that specific bug as the only game breaking one I was aware of ... because... *gasp* IT IS GAME BREAKING. Seriously how do you get: from this: I guess reading is a lost art? And since it is apparently lost... I was NOT using SWTOR as a 'defense'. I was using an example of a literal game breaking bug from SWTOR... because AFAIK there is only one literal game breaking bug in W* (the GM key bug). Please, feel free to point out another literal game breaking bug (I'm not in the least bit suggesting I know every bug in the game) in W*, It could very well be that I just am not aware of some other literal game breaking bugs... But for the love of sanity don't ignore what I post and pretend I said the opposite. | |} ---- It is kind of important because eventually the market will saturate if the sub numbers drop too low and they cannot gain subs fast enough. It will mean C.R.E.D.D. prices will tank and eventually be worthless. You do not need 100 of them and the initial group that amassed a large amout of it has since found out the market did not boom like it should have due to the loss of subs. Only time will tell but If anything C.R.E.D.D. isn't going up anytime soon. | |} ---- I think you are quite massively overestimating the retention rate for MMOs... 50% is totally over the top. I'd say it's more along the lines of 10-15% tops. Most people just buy an MMO, play for 30 days and then quit. At least in the case of heavily hyped so-called AAA titles (most recent example: ESO which will likely go F2P within a year). In the case of more hardcore, less hyped MMOs such as Wildstar it might be 30% retention rate but I doubt it'll be any higher. In the case of EVE the average player stays for 7 months and then quits and that's already a *very* long time in today's MMO market. Please note: I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing - I've been playing EVE since 2004 (when there were a few thousand concurrent players online during peak hours at most) and it was and still is an absolutely great game (best MMO ever, hands down). However, it only stayed a good game because the developers were not trying to maximize their profits and they also didn't sell out to some scumbag of a company that then started screwing the game up by making it increasingly suitable for the masses and less and less hardcore / niche. I think that's sort of the secret: either you make a game along the lines of McDonalds which has the goal to stuff your cheap, low quality food down as many throats as possible (such as WOW) or you make a little restaurant that serves a very special diet (haute cuisine, a vegan restaurant, whatever) which only serves 1% as many people as McDonalds but serves quality food (perhaps also at a higher price). What definitely will fail is if the little restaurant would suddenly be sold to McDonalds and would only start serving substandard burgers to their customers - because those customers will be gone really fast that way. All I can hope is that NCsoft doesn't simply want to maximize profits but actually have the will to make a game that may remain a niche game forever but is actually a semi-decent game. Only time will tell. | |} ---- ---- According to a old prophecy a new planet rises in the night sky every now and then, bringing hope to the citizens of earth. But as soon as the planet reveals itself to earth as a little star, the earth starts to tremble, the air becomes toxic, ears bleed from banshee like screams, the volcanos of rage erupt and the angry mob smashes the star into the ground, leaving nothing but dust. That's pretty much the cycle of every MMO right now. | |} ---- How is this helpful in any way? | |} ---- I guarantee you the EQ Next forums will look just like these a month or two after launch, so better get it done while you can. ;) | |} ---- Yeah I'm sorry but I'll believe the hype when people are actually playing it and there's still much love to go around. | |} ----